On 03/10/2015 10:25, Siri Cruz wrote:
> In article <d79eteFol6qU1@mid.individual.net>, "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> God-botherers believe they are using logic because they do employ it in
>> their theology ... within the closed system of their religion.  They
>> posit baseline truths and then logic their way on from there.  It's like
>> having a screwdriver with a head that fits only proprietary screw sets.
>
> Sorry, but assuming the strong version of the Church-Turing thesis, everyone
> uses a 'closed system' of their axioms. An important principle of the Queen of
> the Sciences is no axiom, not even any logic, is absolutely true in every single
> system. There is no absolute truth: what is provable depends on what you
> assumptions you start with.
>
> Since the axioms are just assumption one system of axioms, like nonstandard
> analysis, is just as true as another, like e-d limits. You can judge a system
> against itself for properties like consistency.

Some systems are more closed than others, and religions more so than most.


>
>> AIUI, the Christian obligation to proselytise rests on Matthew 28:19 "Go
>> ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the
>> Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost", which would appear to be
>> a reasonably direct exhortation to go forth and convert.
>
> It's exhortation to teach and baptise those who were convinced, but it doesn't
> call upon forcing people to convert. It was later when the church leaders
> derived secular power from their congregations they whored themselves to
> politics.

That is quite correct, of course.

I was merely commenting on your stated claim that "the New Testament 
doesn't obligate christians to convert nonchristians".


>
>> To specify: the "or be killed" part is really a version of Islam
>> practised by a fairly small minority of extremist Muslims.  Most of them
>> are as evangelist as CHristianity but don't actively call for genocide
>> on unbelievers.
>
> Your examples of tolerant moslem nations? Any which don't execute converts from
> islam?
>

The answer would depend somewhat on how generous one is when defining 
"tolerance".  Many Islamic nations do not prescribe the death penalty 
for leaving Islam, and may not even define it as a criminal offence at 
all.  Turkey, Indonesia, Bangladesh and Oman spring to mind here.

On the other hand, most Islamic nations are somewhat intolerant of 
converts and apostates and will happily persecute them through civil 
courts, punishing offenders with forcible annulment of marriage, denial 
of child custody, loss of inheritance rights and similar civil-law 
sanctions.